Isola & Hagnesta Hill vs Isola & Hagnesta Hill

[.namnlös]

Just looking into the "English experiment" as Jocke calls it, I wonder if anyone has an opinion on which songs were written in each language. Of course, the band know this, although I don't suppose that information has ever been revealed?

I looked at setlists to see what songs the band carried on playing live after the year 2000. From Isola; 747, Om du var här, Saker man ser and Celsius have been played more than the other tracks. From HH; Musik Non Stop, Kevlarsjäl, Revolt III, Kungen är död, Berg & Dalvana are the most played. Mostly these are singles so it kinda makes sense as to why they are the most played, but Celcius, Kungen and Berg are non-singles and seemingly still quite popular in the Swedish language generally.

So, which songs do you think stand out as having been written in English or Swedish from these records?

[stjärnor]

Something makes me think (maybe I read it somewhere/ heard it in an interview...?) that they were written in Swedish first- with Chris Gordon helping for the translated lyrics. I will happily be corrected, though.

Do you have the original CDs, or just downloads? (Not meant as 'you're less of a fan by having only digital versions'- but do you have the CD booklets?) On the English Isola, in the CD booklet it lists:

All Lyrics by Joakim Berg/Chris Gordon.

and I thought HH was the same, but Chris Gordon isn't mentioned on that at all, just 'J.Berg' and 'J.Berg/M.Sköld'

Hmmm, off to ponder this.

EDIT:

Not much out there about kent & Chris Gordon, but this review mentions he's Glaswegian (and as a Glaswegain, I'm taking personal offence to the "so it’s a wonder they’re intelligible at all" comment ) and says he did the translation- which obviously implies the Swedish must've been written first. True, or not, I don't know, it's just an album review!

Wierdly, there's not even a mention of co-writing (if that's what to call it) on Chris's own site!

Also, I had thought that maybe there was some reference to the actual translations in the Box book, but a quick read of my (very!) rough translation of the text from the Box book, only mentions that 'If you were here" was being played on American radio.

[jazzpurist]

Just looking into the "English experiment" as Jocke calls it, I wonder if anyone has an opinion on which songs were written in each language. Of course, the band know this, although I don't suppose that information has ever been revealed?

I looked at setlists to see what songs the band carried on playing live after the year 2000. From Isola; 747, Om du var här, Saker man ser and Celsius have been played more than the other tracks. From HH; Musik Non Stop, Kevlarsjäl, Revolt III, Kungen är död, Berg & Dalvana are the most played. Mostly these are singles so it kinda makes sense as to why they are the most played, but Celcius, Kungen and Berg are non-singles and seemingly still quite popular in the Swedish language generally.

So, which songs do you think stand out as having been written in English or Swedish from these records?

I dug into it a little, and I found an interview in which Sami says that Jocke often writes lyrics in English first (or at least he used, it was in the old Sonic interview that they released as a book last year), so it wasn't a big transition for the band to release them in English. Jocke did the translations himself and Chris Gordon "helped" him (which can mean that they discussed until it was perfect or that he only proofed it, or anything on that scale). And then I found this article:

http://www.gradvall.se/artiklar.asp?entry_id=295

The relevant part where Jocke talks about these albums is:
"Everyone thinks that the Swedish versions of Isola and Hagnesta Hill are the originals and the English versions are compromises. This is not entirely true. Many of those songs were actually written in English from the beginning. (There are also two kent songs that only exist in English). But even this underlines what we talked about earlier: most people listen to the vocals as an instrument. The lyrics are secondary."

Jocke didn't specify which ones are the originally English songs, at least I couldn't find any info on that. 747 might have been one of those, because I have a vague memory of him mentioning that but maybe it was at a gig or it is just my brain messing with me, because I cannot find any source of that.

I didn't really help you out here, did I?

[stjärnor]

Isn't Quiet Heart one of the 'only in English' songs? An English b-side is probably the other one.

[stjärnor]

Oh, and I think I remember Jocke saying something about songwriting along the lines of 'English words/ noises are easier (or better) to write in' and something that might have been that while although English words are/ were used, they might not have been fully in English, just words/ noise patterns fitting the melody.

This sticks in my brain because Sigur Ros use a mixture of made-up sounds, and English sounding words (to my ears anyway) and Icelandic words. But I'm sure most people know that anyway.

[jazzpurist]

Isn't Quiet Heart one of the 'only in English' songs? An English b-side is probably the other one.

On Hagnesta Hill? Just like money was also released in English only. And on Isola, Velvet has no Swedish equivalent. Inhale/Exhale is another song non-existent in Swedish afaik, but that was released with the box only, so Jan Gradvall was probably not aware of it in 2007.

Tänk om Jan Gradvall har fel. Han kan ha fel...

[stjärnor]

So, if we were to say 'released songs' (on actual HH) it would be Just Like Money & Quiet Heart, being the 2 'only English songs', but that but Velvet and Inhale/Exhale (which is only available in Demo form) also exist as 'other English only' songs, too. Hmmmm, suddenly there's more than I realised!

(also, on a side note-no lyric page exists at kent.nu for Inhale/Exhale, and there are a few mumbly lyrics in there too, espcially the line which starts at 0:48)

Edit to add- Moving on to V&A (sorry) that I've always taken it that the demo of Love Undone in English might have came before the Swedish lyrics of Duett, just with the way the English lyrics sound, as in, they are formed, but not perfectly scanning in some parts- what I was referring to in post #5 above. I actually prefer Love Undone!

[jazzpurist]

So, if we were to say 'released songs' (on actual HH) it would be Just Like Money & Quiet Heart, being the 2 'only English songs', but that but Velvet and Inhale/Exhale (which is only available in Demo form) also exist as 'other English only' songs, too. Hmmmm, suddenly there's more than I realised!

(also, on a side note-no lyric page exists at kent.nu for Inhale/Exhale, and there are a few mumbly lyrics in there too, espcially the line which starts at 0:48)

Edit to add- Moving on to V&A (sorry) that I've always taken it that the demo of Love Undone in English might have came before the Swedish lyrics of Duett, just with the way the English lyrics sound, as in, they are formed, but not perfectly scanning in some parts- what I was referring to in post #5 above. I actually prefer Love Undone!

Love Undone was written for Titiyo but (thank God) never made it to her album. So the English version definitely existed before the Swedish one. I also prefer the English version of it tho.

I also think that OWC is the same good in English as in Swedish, but with the exception of these two and Inhale/Exhale, I don't listen to the English songs at all, so I cannot really contribute to the discussion more as I am not that familiar enough with the English versions to compare. I do own the English albums but listened to them once maybe, decided I prefer kent in Swedish and never revisited them. Actually, I bought them only to "put my money where my mouth is" (bad pun intended).

[.namnlös]

Do you have the original CDs, or just downloads? (Not meant as 'you're less of a fan by having only digital versions'- but do you have the CD booklets?)

None actually. I have everything in Swedish and nothing in English.

To be honest, I came to the same conclusion as jazzpurist and I've not bothered with the English versions. I might get hold of them out of interest, I imagine you can probably get them on Amazon for 1p or something second hand! It would be interesting to see if any seem blindingly obvious as English or Swedish.

Cheers for the input folks!

[stjärnor]

Recently I came across a 2nd hand English Isola in a local charity shop. I didn't buy it (since I have it already AND they wanted £3 for it!), but it was so strange to see anything kent in a shop here.

If I were to put on HH or Isola, I'd pick the Swedish versions everytime first before the English ones. Something about the English versions feels strained to me, like some of the emotion is missing. Some of that comes from the lyrics and some of that from Jocke's voice and, I'm sad to say, his pronounciation. BUT, I do feel his English singing has much improved since then (even Love Undone is better, because it's looser/freer as it's a demo). The Avicii song that Jocke did lyrics for (but wasn't used)- actually sounds really good (English singing-wise)- a video from a nightclub is somewhere on youtube. I'd love to hear that one properly.

[Fast Forward]

Moving on to V&A (sorry) that I've always taken it that the demo of Love Undone in English might have came before the Swedish lyrics of Duett, just with the way the English lyrics sound, as in, they are formed, but not perfectly scanning in some parts- what I was referring to in post #5 above. I actually prefer Love Undone!

I remember reading/hearing somewhere (perhaps during Fråga Kent?) that V&A was entirely written in english originally... But that might be completely wrong, I just have a vague memory of it.

Personally I love the english albums. It took me a while to actually listen real carefully to the lyrics and compare to the swedish counterparts etc, and some of them are really brilliant (not that they wouldn't be, it's Jocke Berg we're talking about), it feels like singing in swedish is hard and only a few make it sound real good instead of corny and cheesy and what not. But we hear 95% of the commercial music today being sung in english. Kent's english lyrcis are actually damn sharp, I'm sure Jocke could've won awards for best lyrics outside of Sweden if the foreign project would've been more successful.

[jazzpurist]

I remember reading/hearing somewhere (perhaps during Fråga Kent?) that V&A was entirely written in english originally... But that might be completely wrong, I just have a vague memory of it.

Personally I love the english albums. It took me a while to actually listen real carefully to the lyrics and compare to the swedish counterparts etc, and some of them are really brilliant (not that they wouldn't be, it's Jocke Berg we're talking about), it feels like singing in swedish is hard and only a few make it sound real good instead of corny and cheesy and what not. But we hear 95% of the commercial music today being sung in english. Kent's english lyrcis are actually damn sharp, I'm sure Jocke could've won awards for best lyrics outside of Sweden if the foreign project would've been more successful.

I agree that the English lyrics are really good as well, and I do like how Jocke sings in English. And his weird pronounciation is part of the charm, tho it probably helps that I'm not a native speaker. I actually love the way Jocke speaks English, and if I can go slighty OT, this interview with him is just too cute for words.



The main reason I prefer the Swedish version is because well... it's in Swedish. I listen to very few Swedish bands/artists and most of those sings in English as well. Everyone and their mother sings in English. 90% of the TV shows and movies we watch is in English. I hate translated books just as much as I hate dubbed movies, so I try to read originals and since I only speak a limited number of languages, it ends up mostly being English. I even work in English. It's pretty refreshing to listen to something not in English.

Another reason I prefer the Swedish lyrics is the lack of "she". I love it that they are kind of gender neutral, it's always just "du" or "vi" or "jag", with few exceptions where it is obvious that the other one is a woman (Vintervila, Indianer for example). I like not being tied to a gender. Even Ansgar&Evelyne, it's just an allegory, Evelyne can be also be a guy or Ansgar another girl for all you know. It's all just about a disastrous love between a good-for-nothing person who drags their lover down in the mud with themselves (at least Zweite Heimat, after which the song was titled is about this, and this is how i interpret the song as well.) I really really love it. It gives me a bigger freedom of interpretation than all the "she" that is dropped in the English lyrics. (And by interpretation I mean what the song means to me, as Jocke thankfully really seldom tells us how to interpret the songs.)

However, I am doing analysis for a living so I try not to analyse anything in my private life, therefore I am not really interested in comparing and analysing lyrics. What I need from a good song is to wake an emotion in me, any kind of emotion (other than boredom or intense hate, of course). If that's missing, the music is not enjoyable for me. The English versions are a bit sterile compared to the Swedish ones from that point of view. Not lyrics-wise, but Jocke sings them with less emotion - which may be a conscious decision from his side or it is just simply harder to convey emotions in a foreign language (I know, I struggle like hell putting my emotions into words in Swedish). Still the Swedish versions feel more emotionally loaded for me, therefore they get my ultimate vote over the English versions. With the exception of the already mentioned Love Undone, Inhale/Exhale and OWC.

[.namnlös]

The English versions are a bit sterile compared to the Swedish ones from that point of view. Not lyrics-wise, but Jocke sings them with less emotion - which may be a conscious decision from his side or it is just simply harder to convey emotions in a foreign language (I know, I struggle like hell putting my emotions into words in Swedish).

This is quite interesting. I have the same "sense" for that even though my Swedish is pathetic at best. But I agree somehow the way it comes over in Swedish really works. That said, I can imagine having done studio recording myself, that spending a long time nailing a vocal is hard enough as it is in one language. To then have a break and do it again in another over the same music must be hugely draining.

Although it's not directly related, the current @sweden on twitter mentioned this just this morning and is kinda interesting for this discussion. I've stitched the tweets into a longer quote here;

As I wrote on http://curatorsofsweden.se , I probably won't provide much by way of insights into Swedishness. And I'm sure you already know the Swedish word for drinking coffee, and that we sound like robots when we speak English. But I'll note something about speaking English, as someone who goes around sounding like a robot all day at work. The hard thing about writing about science in Swedish is not the technical terms, because they're mostly the same. Even though "polymeraskedjereaktionen" looks pretty funny. And I'm looking for an excuse to write "kopplingsojämviktsstatistika". The problem is that expressions and phrases that sound good and clever to me in English often sound stupid in Swedish. There is a similar thing going on with poetry. How often have you heard a Swede claim that they write better in English? I'm convinced this is because I'm tone deaf to nuances of English, but I don't know. So I suspect that when Swedish writers think their English poetry sounds better,it's often because they don't see the tired cliches in. And, for the same reason, that I should probably try to do more of my thinking in Swedish. (Obviously, this doesn't apply to Swedes who are native English speakers, nor to other exceptionally fluent individuals.)

[.namnlös]

Recently I came across a 2nd hand English Isola in a local charity shop. I didn't buy it (since I have it already AND they wanted £3 for it!), but it was so strange to see anything kent in a shop here.

Both records are 1p on Amazon What state they are in might be a different story

[tobbe non stop]

I dug into it a little, and I found an interview in which Sami says that Jocke often writes lyrics in English first (or at least he used, it was in the old Sonic interview that they released as a book last year), so it wasn't a big transition for the band to release them in English. Jocke did the translations himself and Chris Gordon "helped" him (which can mean that they discussed until it was perfect or that he only proofed it, or anything on that scale). And then I found this article:

http://www.gradvall.se/artiklar.asp?entry_id=295

The relevant part where Jocke talks about these albums is:
"Everyone thinks that the Swedish versions of Isola and Hagnesta Hill are the originals and the English versions are compromises. This is not entirely true. Many of those songs were actually written in English from the beginning. (There are also two kent songs that only exist in English). But even this underlines what we talked about earlier: most people listen to the vocals as an instrument. The lyrics are secondary."

Jocke didn't specify which ones are the originally English songs, at least I couldn't find any info on that. 747 might have been one of those, because I have a vague memory of him mentioning that but maybe it was at a gig or it is just my brain messing with me, because I cannot find any source of that.

I didn't really help you out here, did I?

I think that A timekill to die for might have been written in English first since the title is actually sung in the refrain whereas in the Swedish version he never sings the Swedish title Ett tidsfördriv att dö för, instead he sings En livslögn att dö för (I'm not sure how to translate livslögn, I think it might be an idiom but life lie if you just translate to what the words mean in english

I'm not really sure about Music non stop, because in one interview on MTV many years ago Jocke said he had to squeeze the line "music non stop" in somewhere since it's not sung in the refrain as in the swedish version. However, the songs lyrics is inspired by the short story "Why don't you dance?" by Raymond Carver (Jocke has said this a few times when the song was played live) and since the short stories' title is sung in the lyrics, it might have been English from the beginning. Or like he has said in some interviews, many times the songs are both in English and Swedish at the same time, a Swedish verse with an English refrain or vice versa or maybe an English verse and then a Swedish verse

And as for 747 I might add that one of the most famous and often cited lines in the lyrics, Ni kan skratta om ni vill, håna oss, vi rör oss ni står still (You may laugh if you want to, you may mock/scoff/taunt/make fun of us, we are moving, you are standing still) was taken from a song Jocke wrote before collapsing in bed after a night of heavy drinking and partying, called Se upp för skäggen (Watch out for the beards). When he woke up the next morning (probably quite hung over) he found the lyrics on his bedside and really liked that specific line that made it into 747